In conversation with:

Kate Toon, Copywriter and SEO lover
More about Kate.

Kate Toon is an award-winning SEO copywriter and SEO consultant with almost two decades of experience in all things advertising, digital and writing. Originally from the UK but now based just outside Sydney.

She’s worked with big brands such as eHarmony, Curash and Kmart. And she’s helped countless small businesses produce great content and improve their copywriting and SEO.

Kate is also the founder of The Clever Copywriting School and The Recipe for SEO Success eCourse, as well as co-host on the Hot Copy podcast.

1. Who or what taught you the most about communication? Tell us more.

The experience of running my own business has taught me the most about communication. Even though I’ve worked in fancy-pants ad agencies, I’ve learned more in my time as a solo business person than I ever did from my so-called mentors and genius creative directors.

Most of it has been trial and error. The tone of a call isn’t right, so you change it for next time. The content of a status update causes a bad reaction, so you tweak it. A client interaction goes sour, so you create a template to improve the next call.

I spent the first three or four years of my business continually putting my foot in it, and learning from those communication mistakes. I’m still not perfect, but I’m much improved.

2. Nature or nurture? Can people learn to be great communicators, or must you be born that way?

I think some people are just born with the gift of the gab. They’re born communicators. Whereas others, like me, maybe have a seed of communication skills that they need to nurture and grow and feed through experience.

Equally I’ve met some lifelong terrible communicators who refuse to improve, generally because they think they know it all.

3. What makes someone an extraordinary communicator? What characteristics, personality traits, experiences or otherwise ‘add up’ to make them so?

I’d say it comes down to three things:

• Listening skills: Taking a ‘two ears, one mouth’ approach to their audience and actively listening. And responding appropriately. Understanding what the person is telling you, making them feel heard, acknowledging their point of view, and making it a two-way conversation.
• Getting personal: Establishing a connection is super important—creating some kind of common ground through stories, humour or experiences. It doesn’t need to be a hugely deep connection, but taking the time to understand and relate to their audience’s beliefs, desires and fears.
• Clarity of message: I think good communicators know that saying less is saying more. They remove abstract and ambiguous statements, stick to the facts, and don’t oversell or pack their communications with long words or superfluous adjectives.

4. What’s your secret sauce? When you sit down to write an important message to your team or clients, what process or method do you use?

Oh, gosh! I wish I had some patented Toon methodology here, but it’s pretty simple really. I simply try to put myself in the shoes of the person I’m communicating with. Thankfully I have a vivid imagination fed by reading a gazillion novels, and my empathy gland is healthy.

If I’m selling a product, I’ll try to see beyond the features and benefits to the advantage. How is this going to change my life? Or the customer’s life?

And after everything I write I say, ‘So what? Why should I care?’ And if I don’t care enough, then I need to rewrite it. The stakes need to be high.

5. Does that process change when you’re under pressure with a short deadline? How?

Thankfully I have a crazy-fast typing speed (around 97 wpm) so I can write pretty much as fast as my brain thinks. When I’m under pressure I use the Pomodoro Technique of giving myself 25 mins to get something down.

I write whatever I can think of. I don’t stop. I just type, type, type.

Then I have a cup of tea and start hacking away at the raw material, shaping it into something useable. It’s the old ‘you can’t edit a blank page’ method.

6. What principles do you swear by when presenting to a live group?

I guess the obvious ones are ‘talk slowly and clearly’, ‘make eye contact’, and ‘wear a clean t-shirt’.

Personally, I try to build rapport with my audience. I try to make them laugh, to make a connection with them. I present a lot on SEO, which can be pretty dry. So I try to use quirky analogies and unusual language to make the dry content feel more … er, moist.

7. Some people say emotions are irrelevant at work: ‘Focus on the facts!’ What’s your take on that?

Several bosses told me I was too emotional. I think that’s fairly common for women. On reflection I probably was. I was young, and often had no idea what I was doing. Now as a slightly more wrinkly, saggy old bird, I’m a little better at not reacting and letting my emotions take over.

But I’d still say I’m an emotional person, as in ‘Yes, I have emotions. And yes, I sometimes let them show’. The good emotions—enthusiasm, excitement and, dare I say it, passion—along with the bad ones—cynicism, anger and fed-upness. But as you can probably tell, I’m a big advocate for being HUMAN in all your communications. I’d rather deal with, listen to and communicate with an emotional human than an emotion-less drone.

8. How do you approach influencing someone more senior than you?

Exactly the same way I would influence someone junior to me. I’d try to communicate in a way they understand. I’d try to be respectful, to listen, to follow instructions. But I’ll be honest—dealing with people senior to me never came easy unless they were super impressive and knowledgeable and wise. Which hasn’t always been the case with all my bosses.

9. What are your favourite strategies for motivating people to action?

I often get asked to do coaching calls and mentoring, and when I do, I warn people that I don’t pull any punches. I’m not the softly-softly-tickly-monkey kind. I’m the shake-you-by-the-shoulders-get-on-with-it kind.

Generally I like to make people:
a) Believe they can do it
b) Understand that even if they can’t, it’s no big deal.

In my line of business, people are fearful of making mistakes and looking like a fool. But we all look like fools now and again, and I think that makes us more loveable. More admirable. So generally, my motivation advice is, ‘Go for it. What’s the worst that can happen?’ and ‘As soon as it’s done you can start dealing with the consequences, rather than fretting over a million possible outcomes’.

10. What’s the toughest message you’ve ever had to write or deliver? How did you handle it? Would you do things differently now?

I had to write sales copy for a new vibrator a few years ago. Well, I didn’t have to, but I chose to because I thought the project would be challenging. It was like the Apple iPhone of vibrators—very space age, and lots of research and tech had gone into its development.

They wanted the brand to appeal to professional, intelligent women, and not to be smutty. We worked a lot on dividing words into Yes and No camps. Words that sounded sleazy and words that sounded positive. It was a great project.

11. What’s your favourite quote or saying about communication (serious or funny)?

‘Most people do not listen with the intent to understand, they listen with the intent to reply.’

12. What advice would you give people who aren’t confident communicators or want to improve?

Ah, is it too cheesy to say ‘Speak from the heart’? When I talk about things I’m genuinely excited about, and when I speak in areas I know really well, I think my communication is better.

We’re all subject-matter experts in something, and we should be confident about that.
Also, if you’re fearful about certain communication situations, write yourself little bullet-point scripts to get you through them. Little cheat sheets with ideas for conversation starters, fillers or closers.

13. Who do you personally know that you admire as an extraordinary communicator? What makes them so good?

In my world, I’d say Rand Fishkin from Moz.com. He has a quirky style about him, and he speaks in a clear, conversational way. He uses rich language, lots of examples and analogies and he weaves personal experience through everything he does.

Having interviewed him, I found he was genuinely interested in what he talks about and that enthusiasm is so infectious. He’s personable and likeable, and also humble.

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Know an extraordinary communicator?

This series taps the hard-won insights of exceptional communicators. Whom do you admire? Please connect us: hello@credosity.com